Why Every Agent Needs a Box — Aaron Levie, Box

Like you don't write code, you talk to an agent, and it goes and does it for you, and you maybe at best review it. That's even probably like-

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

... like largely not even what you're doing. What's happening is we are changing our work to make the agents effective in that model. The agent didn't really adapt to how we work. We basically adapted to how the agent works.

All of the economy has to go through that exact same evolution. Right now, it's a huge asset and an advantage for the teams that do it early and that are kind of wired into doing this, 'cause you'll see compounding returns, but that's just gonna take a while for most companies to actually go and get this deployed.

Welcome to The Latent Space Pod. We're back in the Chroma Studio with s- uh, Chroma CEO, Jeff Huber. Welcome. Returning guest, but now guest host.

It's a pleasure. Wow, how'd you get upgraded to, uh, to that?

Because he, he's like the perfect guy to be guest host for you.

That makes sense, actually.

For you.

We love context. We, we both really love context. We really do. We really do.

Uh, and we're here with, uh, Aaron Levie. Welcome.

Thank you. Good to, uh, good to be here.

Uh, yeah, yeah, so we've all met offline and like chatted a little bit, but like it's always nice to get these things in person and in conversation.

Yeah.

You just started off with so much energy. You're, you're ex- super, super excited about agents. Um-

I love agents.

Yeah. OpenCloud just got bought, got bought by OpenAI. Well, not, not bought, but you know, you know what I mean.

Some-

Like-

... some, uh, you know, acquihire-y... Executive hire. Executive hire. Okay. Okay.

Executive hire. Hey, that's my term.

Okay.

Um, what are you pounding the table on on agents? You have so many insightful tweets.

Well, the thing that, that we get super excited about that I think is probably, you know, should be relatively obvious, is we've, we've built a platform to help enterprises manage their files and their, their corporate files, and the permissions of who has access to those files, and the sharing and collaboration of those files.

And all of those files contain really, really important information for the enterprise. It might have your contracts. It might have your research materials. It might have marketing information. It might have your memos. All that data obviously has pr- you know, predominantly been used by humans.

But there's been one really interesting problem, which is that, you know, humans only really work with their files during an active engagement with them, and then they kinda go away, and you don't really see them for a long time.

And all of a sudden, uh, with the power of AI and AI agents, all of that data becomes extremely relevant as this ongoing source of, of answers to new questions, of data that will transform into, into something else that, that produces value in your organization.

It h- it contains the answer to the new employee that's onboarding that needs to ramp up on a project. Um, it contains the answer to the right thing to sell a customer when you're having a conversation to them, with them.

Contains the roadmap information that's gonna produce the next feature. So all that data that previously we've been just sort of storing and, and s- you know, occasionally forgetting about 'cause we're only working on the new active stuff, all of that information becomes valuable to the enterprise.

And it's gonna become extremely valuable to end users because now they can have agents go find what they're looking for and produce new, new value and new data on that information. And it's gonna become incredibly valuable to agents because agents can roam around and do a bunch of work, and they're gonna need access to that data as well.

And, um, and, you know, sometimes that will be an agent that is sort of working on behalf of, uh, of, of you, and, and effectively as you as ... And, and they are kind of accessing all of the same information that you have access to and, and operating as you in the system.

And then sometimes there's gonna be agents that are just effectively autonomous and kind of run on their own, and, and you're gonna collaborate and work with them kind of like you did another person. OpenCloud being the most recent and maybe first real sort of, you know, kind of, you know, up- updating everybody's, you know, views of this landscape version of, of what that could look like, which is, okay, I have an agent.

It's on its own system. It's on its own computer. It has access to its own tools. I probably don't give it access to my entire life. I probably communicate with it like I would an assistant or a colleague, and then it, it sort of has this sandbox environment.

So all of that has massive implications for a platform that manage that enterprise data. We think it's gonna just transform how we work with all of the enterprise content that we work with, and we have just had to make sure we're building the right platform to support that.

The sort of shorthand I put it is as people build agents, every- buddy's just realizing that every agent needs a box.

Yes.

And it's nice to be called Box and just give everyone a box.

I, if I, you know, if we can make that go viral- ... uh, like I, I think that, that terminology-

I think that's the tagline: Every agent needs a box

... which every agent needs a box. If we can make that the headline of this, I'm fine with this and- That's the billboard I want to write. Yeah, exactly. Every agent needs a box. Um-

Yeah. Yeah

... I like it. Can we ship this?

Yeah.

Like, okay.

Let's do it. Yeah, yeah.

Uh, my work here is done. And I got the value I needed out of this podcast.

You get more drinks, yeah.

But, but, um, but, but, you know, so the thing that we, we kind of think about is, um, is, you know, whether you think the number's 10X or 100X or whatever the number is, we're gonna have some order of magnitude more agents than people.

That's inevitable. It has to happen. So then the question is: What is the infrastructure that's needed to make all those agents effective in the enterprise? Make sure that they are well-governed, make sure they're only doing safe things on your information, make sure that they're not getting exposed to data that they shouldn't have access to.

There's gonna be just incredibly, spectacularly crazy security incidents that will happen with agents because you'll prompt inject an agent and sort of find your way through the CRM system and pull out data that you shouldn't have access to.

So we have-

Oh, God.

Right. I mean, it's just gonna happen all over the place, right? So, so then the thing is, is how do you make sure you have the right security, the permissions, the access controls, the data governance? Um, we actually don't yet exactly know in many cases how we're gonna regulate some of these agents, right?

If you think about an agent in financial services, does it have the exact same financial sort of, uh, requirements that a human did, or is it, is the risk fully on the human that was interacting or created the agent?

All open questions. But no matter what, there's gonna need to be a layer that manages the, the data they have access to, the workflows that they're involved in, pulling up data from multiple systems. This is the new infrastructure opportunity in the era of agents.

You have a piece on agent identities, which I think was today, um, which I think a lot of us-

Breaking news

... the security, security people are talking about, right?

Yeah.

Like basically, I always think of this as like, well, you need the human you, and then there's, you need the agent you.

Yes.

And, uh, well, I, it, I don't know if it's that simple, but is Box going to have an opinion on that? Or you're just gonna be like, "Well, we- we're just a sort of this, the source layer-"

Yeah.

"... Let Okta Auth0 handle that."

I think we're gonna have an opinion, and we will work with generally wherever the contours of the market end up. Um, and the reason that we're gonna have an opinion more than other topics probably is because one of the biggest use cases for why your agent might need it an identity is for file system access.

So, so thus, we have to kinda think about this pretty deeply. And I think, uh, unless you're like in our world thinking about this particular problem all day long, it might be, you know, like, why is this such a big deal?

And the reason why it's a really big deal is because sometimes sort of say, well, just give the agent a, an account on the system, and it just treats, treat it like every other type of user on the system.

The problem is, is that I, as Aaron, don't really have any responsibility over anybody else's Box account in our organization. I can't see the Box account of any other employee that I work with. I am not liable for anything that they do, and they have, I have n- I have, you know, strict privacy requirements on everything that they are able to, you know, that they, that they work on.

Agents don't have that, you know, don't have tho- those properties. The person who creates the agent probably is gonna, for the foreseeable future, take on a lot of the liability of what that agent does. That agent doesn't deserve any privacy because, because it's, you know, it, it can't fully be autonomously operated, and it doesn't have any legal, you know, kind of, you know, responsibility.

So thus, you can't just be like, "Oh, I'll just create a bunch of accounts, and then I'll, I'll kinda work with that agent, and I'll talk to it occasionally." Like, you need oversight over that. And so then the question is, how do you have a world where the agent, sometimes you have oversight of, but what if that agent goes and works with other people and that person, uh, over there is collaborating with the agent on something, you shouldn't have access to what they're doing.

So we have all of these new boundaries that we're gonna have to figure out of, of, you know, it's really, really easy... So far, we've been in, in easy mode. We've hit the easy button with AI, which is the agent just is you, and when you're in Claude Code and you're in Cursor and you're in Codex, you're just...

The agent is you. It, you're authing in to your services. It can do everything you can do. That's the easy mode. The hard mode is agents are kinda running on their own. People check in with them occasionally. They're doing things autonomously.

How do you give them access to resources in the enterprise and not dramatically increase the security risk and the risk that you might expose the wrong thing to somebody? These are all the new problems that we have to get solved.

I like the identity layer and, and identity vendors as being a solution to that. But we'll, we'll need some opinions as well because so many of the use cases are these collaborative file system use cases, which is, how do I give an agent a subset of my data and give it its own workspace as well?

Because it's gonna need to store off its own information that would be relevant for it, and how do I have the right oversight into that?

One thing which, um, I think is kind of interesting about that, you know, how humans work, right? Like, I may not also just, like, give you access to the whole file. I might, like, sit next to you and, like, scroll to this, like, one part of the file- ...

and just show you that, like, one part and, like-

Okay

... you know.

Partial file access?

Well, I'm just saying, I think, like, RBAC- ... like, RBAC does seem to be dead, right? Like, you wanna say something is dead-

Uh-huh

... probably RBAC is dead, and, uh, like, the Auth story to me seems, like, incredibly unsolved and unaddressed by, like-

Mm

... the existing state of, like, AI vendors, but-

Yeah, I think, um, we're-- I mean, you're taking obviously r- really to lev- a level of limit that we probably need to solve for.

Yeah.

And we built an access control system that was, was kinda like, you know, its own little world for a, for a long time, and, um, and the idea was this. It's a many-to-many collaboration system where I can give you any part of the file system, and it's a waterfall model, so if I give you higher up in the, in the, in the system, you get everything below.

And that, that kind of created immense flexibility-

Mm-hmm

... because I can kinda point you to any layer in the, in the tree, but then you're gonna get access to everything kinda below it.

Mm-hmm.

And that mostly is, is working in this, in this world, but you do have to manage this issue, which is: How do I create an agent that has access to some of my stuff and somebody else's stuff as well?

Mm-hmm.

And which parts do I get to look at as the creator of the agent and, and these are just brand-new problems.

Yeah, crazy.

And humans, when there was a human there, that was really easy to do. Like, like, if the three of us were all sharing, there'd be a Venn diagram where we'd have an overlapping set of things we've shared, but then we'd have our own ways that we shared with each other.

But in an agent world, somebody needs to take responsibility for what that agent has access to and what they're working on. These are, like, the some of the most probably, you know, boring problems for 98% of people on, on the internet.

But they will be the problems that are the difference between can you actually have autonomous agents in an enterprise context-

Mm.

Yeah

... that are not leaking your data constantly.

No, like, I mean, you know, I run a very, very small company for my conference, and, like, we already have data sensitivity, -tivity issues.

Yes.

And some of my team members cannot see-

Yes

... uh, the others. And, like, I can't imagine what it's like to run a Fortune 500, and you have to worry about this. I- I'm just kinda curious, like, you, you talked to a lot, like, like 70, 80% of your cust- uh, of the Fortune 500 are your customers?

Yep. 67%, just so we're being very-

Okay, yeah

... SEC precise.

Sorry. So yeah, no, yeah.

Okay. Okay.

Something. I'm rounding up.

Yes, yes.

I'm projecting-

I rounded it down for, for the government, uh-

I'm projecting to the end of the year.

Okay. Okay, thank you. There we go.

There we go.

How, how do you make it sound like I've, like we, we... Well, we gotta be honest. Like, we're t- we're taking way too long to get to 80%.

Yeah, well, no, I mean, so, like, how are they approaching it?

Yes.

Right? Because you're, you don't have a, you don't have a final answer yet.

Yes. Well, okay, so, so th- th- this is actually, this is the stark reality that, like, unfortunately is the kinda like pouring the water on the party a little bit.

Yes.

We all in Silicon Valley are like, have the absolute best conditions possible for AI ever. And I think we all saw the Dwarkesh, you know, kind of Dario podcast, and this idea of AI coding, why is that taking off?

And, and we're not yet fully seeing it everywhere else. Well, like, if you just, like, enumerated the list of properties that AI coding has and then compared it to other knowledge work, let's just, let's just go through a few of them.

Generally speaking, you bring on a new engineer, they have access to a large swath of the code base. Like, there's like very... Like, you just... Like, new engineer comes on, they can just go and find the, the, the stuff that they, they need to work with.

It's a fully text in, text out, you know, medium. It's only... It's just gonna be text at the end of the day. So it's, like, really great from a, from just a, a, you know, kinda what the agent can work with.

Obviously, the models are super trained on that data set. The labs themselves have a really strong kind of self-reinforcing positive flywheel of why they need to do, you know, agentic coding deeply, so then you get just better tooling, better services.

The actual developers of the AI are daily users of the, of the thing that they're- we're working in versus, like, the... You know, probably there's only, like, seven Claude Cowork legal plugin users at Anthropic any given day, but there's, like, a couple thousand Claude Code, eh, you know, users every single day.

So just, like, think about which one are they getting more feedback on all day long. So you just go through this list. You have a, you know, everybody who's a developer by definition is technical, so they can go install the latest thing.

We're all generally online, or at least, you know, kind of the weird ones are, and we're all talking to each other, sharing best practices. Like, that's, like, already eight differences versus the rest of the economy. Every other part of the economy has, like, like, six to seven headwinds relative to that list.

You go into a company, you're a banker in financial services, you have access to, like, a, a tiny little subset of the total data that's gonna be relevant to do your job, and you're gonna have to start to go and talk to a bunch of people to get the right data to do your job.

Because Sally didn't add you to that deal room, you know, folder, and that, the, you know, the information is actually in a completely different organization that you now have to go and, and, and sort of run into. And it's so, like, you have this endless list of access controls and security, as, as you talked about.

You have a medium which is not... It's not just text, right? You have, you have a Zoom call that, that you're getting all of the requirements from the customer. You have a lot of in-person conversations, and you're doing in-person sales and, like, how do you ever digitize all of that information?

Um, you know, I think a lot of people got upset with this idea that the code base has all the context, um, that I don't know if you follow, you know... Did you follow some of that conversation that, that went viral is, like, you know, it's not that simple that, that the code base doesn't have all the knowledge.

But, like, it's a lot... You're a lot better off than you are with other areas of knowledge work. Like, you, we, like, we, like, have documentation practices. You write specifications. Those things don't exist for, like, 80% of work that happens in the enterprise.

That's the divide that we have, which is, which is AI coding has, has just fully es- uh, you know, we've reached escape velocity of how powerful this stuff is, and then we're gonna have to find a way to bring that same energy and momentum but to all these other areas of knowledge work where the tools aren't there, the data's not set up to be there, the access controls don't make it that easy, the context engineering is an incredibly hard problem because, again, you have access control challenges, you have different data formats, you have end users that are gonna need to kinda be kinda trained through this as opposed to they're adopting these tools in their free time.

That's where the Fortune 500 is. And so we, I think, you know, have to be prepared as an industry where we are gonna be on a multi-year march to, to be able to bring agents to the enterprise for these workflows.

And I think probably the, the thing that we've learned most in coding that, that the rest of the world is not yet, I think, ready for... I mean, w- w- they'll, they'll have to be ready for it because it's just gonna inevitably happen is, I think in coding what, what's interesting is if you think about the practice of coding today versus two years ago, yeah, it's probably the most changed workflow in maybe the history of time from the amount of time it's changed.

Right?

Yeah.

Like, like, has any, has any workflow in the entire economy changed that quickly r- in terms of the amount of change? I just, w- you, you know, a- at least in any knowledge worker workflow. There's, like, very rarely been an event where one piece of technology and work practice has so fundamentally, you know, changed, changed what you do.

Like, you don't write code. You talk to an agent, and it goes and does it for you, and you maybe at best review it, and even i- that's even probably, like-

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

... like, largely not even what you're doing. What's happening is we are changing our work to make the agents effective in that model. The agent didn't really adapt to how we work. We basically adapted to how the agent works.

Mm-hmm.

All of the economy has to go through that exact same evolution. The rest of the economy is gonna have to update its workflows to make agents effective and to give agents the context that they need and to actually figure out what kind of prompting works and to figure out how do you ensure that the agent has the right access to information to be able to execute on its work.

I, you know, this is not the panacea that people were hoping for of the agent drops in, just automates your life. Like, you have to basically re-engineer your workflow to get the most out of agents and, uh, and that, that's just gonna take m- you know, multiple years across the economy.

Right now it's a huge asset and an advantage for the teams that do it early and that are kinda wired into doing this 'cause you'll see compounding returns. But that's just gonna take a while for most companies to actually go and get this deployed.

I love, I love pushing back. I think that that is what a lot of con- technology consultants love to hear this sort of stuff.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right? First to, to embrace the AI.

Yeah.

To get to the promised land, you must pay me so much money-

100%

... to adopt the prescribed way of, uh, conforming to the agents.

Yes.

And I worry that you will be eclipsed by someone else who says, "No, come as you are"-

Yeah

... "and we'll meet you where you are" and-

And, and, and what was the thing that went viral a week ago? OpenAI probably, uh, is hiring FDEs-

Yeah

... uh, to go into the enterprise.

Yeah.

And then Anthropic is embedded at Goldman Sachs.

Yep.

So if the labs are having to do this- ... th- if, if the labs have decided that they need to hire FDE and professional services, then I think that's a pretty clear indication that this... there's no easy mode-

Okay

... of workflow transformation.

Yeah, yeah.

So, so to your point, I think actually this is a market opportunity for, you know, new professional services and consulting firms that are, like, agent pilled, and they, and they kinda, you know, go into organizations, and they figure out how to re-engineer your workflows to make them more agent ready and get your data into the right format and r- you know, reconstruct your business process so you're, you're not doing most of the work.

You're telling agents how to do the work, and then you're reviewing it. But I haven't seen the thing that can just drop in and, and kinda let you not go through those changes.

I don't know how that kind of sales pitch goes over.

Yeah.

Like, you know, you're, you're saying things like, "Well, in my sort of nice, beautiful walled garden, here's, here's, uh- ... here's this, here's this beautiful Box account that has everything."

Yes.

And I'm like, well, most, most real life is extremely messy-

Sure

... and, like, poorly named, and-

But, but the, the-

... there's duplicates-

Yeah

... and there's outdated shit.

100%. And so no, no, 100%. And so this is actually... No, so, so this is... I mean, we agree that, that getting to the beautiful garden is gonna be tough.

Yeah.

There's also the other end of the spectrum where I c- I just like... It's a technical impossibility to solve. The agent is, is truly cannot get enough context to make the right decision in, in the f- in the incredibly messy land.

Like, there's no AGI that will solve that. So, so we're gonna have to kinda land in somewhere in between, which is, like, we all collectively get better at documentation practices and, and having authoritative, relatively up-to-date information and putting it in the right place.

Like, agents will, will certainly cause us to be much better organized around how we work with our information, simply because the severity of the agent pulling the wrong data will be too high, and the productivity gain of... that you'll miss out on by not doing this will be too high as well-

Yeah

... that y- that your competition will just do it, and th- they'll just have higher velocity. So, uh... And, and we, we see this a lot firsthand. So we, we build a series of agents internally that they can kind of have access to your full Box account and go off, and you give it a task, and it can go find whatever information you're looking for and work with.

And, you know, thank God for the model progress, but, like, if, if you gave that task to an agent nine months ago, you're just gonna get lots of bogus answers. Because it's gonna, it's gonna say, "Hey, here's, here are fi- five, you know, documents that all kinda smell like the right thing, and I'm gonna..."

But I... But you're, you're putting me on the clock 'cause my system prompt says, like, you know, be pretty smart but also try and respond to the user. And it's gonna respond, and it's like, "Ah, it got the wrong document."

And then you do that once or twice as a knowledge worker, and you just-

Never again.

Never again.

Yeah, yeah.

You're just, like, done with the system.

Yeah. Doesn't work.

It doesn't work. And so, you know, Opus 4.6 and Gemini 3 One Pro and, you know, uh, the... whatever the latest 5.3 GBT will be. Like, those things are getting better and better, and it's using better judgment. And this sort of like the...

all of these updates to the agentic tool and search systems are, are... we're seeing, we're seeing very real progress where the agent kinda can, can almost smell something's a little bit fishy when it's getting... You know, w- we have this process where we, we have it go fan out, do a bunch of searches, pull up a bunch of data, and then it has to sort of do its own ranking of, you know, what are the right documents that, that it should be working with.

And again, like, you know, the intelligence level of a model six months ago w- it'd be just throwing a dart at like, "I'm just- I'm gonna grab these seven files, and I, I pre- I hope that that's the, the right answer."

And something like an Opus, first 4.5 and now 4.6 is like, "Oh." It's like, "No, that one doesn't seem right relative to this question because I'm seeing some signal that is making that, you know, that's contradicting the document where it would normally be in the tree and who should have access."

Like, it's doing all of that kind of work for you. But, like, it still doesn't work if you just have a total wasteland of data. Like, it's just not, it's just not possible, partly because a human wouldn't even be able to do it.

So basically, if a, if a really, really smart human could not do that task in 5 or 10 minutes for a search retrieval type task, like, you know, your agent is not gonna be able to do it any better.

Uh-

You see this all day long. So

This touches on the thing that Jeff's passionate about, which is context engineering. I, I'm just gonna let you ramble or riff on, on context engineering if, if, if there's anything. Like, y- you did really good work on context rot, which has really taken over as, like, the term that people use and the reference.

100%.

Yeah.

We, we... all we think about is, is the context rot problem.

Yeah, there's certainly a lot of, like, ranking considerations. Agentic search I think is incredibly promising. Um, yeah, I was trying to generate a question though. I don't have a question right now, swyx.

Yeah. No, but like, like, I think, uh, there was this moment, um, you know, like, I don't know, two years ago before, before we knew, like, where the, the gotchas were gonna be in AI, and I think someone was like, was like, "Well, infinite context windows will just solve all of these problems"- "...

and 'cause you'll just, you'll just give the context window, like, all the data." And it's just like, okay, I mean, maybe in 2035, like, this is a viable solution. First of all, it w- it would just, it would just simply cost too much.

Yeah.

Like, we just can't give the model, like, the 5,000 documents that might be relevant, and it's gonna read them all. And I've seen enough to, to start believing in crazy stuff, so, like, I'm willing to just say sure, like, in, in 10 years from now.

Never say never.

In, in 10 years from now-

Never say never

... we'll have infinite context windows at, at a thousandth of the price of today. Like, let's just, like, believe that that's possible. But right, we're in reality today. So today we have a context engineering problem, which is I got, I got, you know, 200,000 tokens that I can work with, or probab- I don't even know what, what the latest graph is before, like, massive degradation.

Like 60. 60.

Okay. I have 60,000 tokens that I get to work with where I'm gonna get accurate information. That's not a lot of tokens for a corpus of 10 million documents that a knowledge worker might have across all of the teams and all of the projects and all the people they work with.

I have, I have 10 million documents which, you know, maybe is times five pages per document or something like that. I'm at 50 million pages of information, and I have 60,000 tokens. Like, holy shit.

Yeah.

This is like, how do I bridge the 50 million pages of information with- You know, the couple hundred that I get to work with in that, in that token window.

Yeah.

This is like, th- this is like such an interesting problem. And that's why actually so much work is actually like, just like search systems and the databases, and that layer has to just get so locked in. But models getting better, and importantly knowing when they've done a search, they found the wrong thing, they go back, they check their work.

They, they find a way to balance sort of appeasing the user versus double-checking. We have this one-

Mm

... we have this one test case where we ask the agent to go find 10 pieces of information.

Is this the complex work eval?

Uh, this is actually not an eval. This is, this is sort of just like we have a bunch of-

Different, different

... we have a bunch of internal benchmark-

Yeah

... kind of scenarios every time we, we update our agent. We have one which is, I ask it to find all of our office addresses, and I give it the list of 10 offices that we have, and there's not one document that has this.

Maybe there should be. That would be a great example of the kind of thing that like maybe over time companies start to, you know, have these sort of like, what are the canonical, you know, kind of key areas of knowledge that we need to have.

We don't seem to have this one document that says, "Here are all of our offices."

Mm-hmm.

We have a bunch of documents-

Mm

... that have like, "Here's the New York office," and whatever.

Mm.

So you'd ask this agent and you, you get- you say, "I need the addresses for these 10 offices," okay? And by the way, if you do this on any ch- you know, public chat model, the same outcome is gonna happen but for a different kind of query.

You give it... You say, "I need these 10 addresses." How many times should the agent go and do its search before it decides whether or not there's just no answer to this question? Often, and especially the- the, let's say, lower tier models, it'll come back and it'll give you 6 of the 10 addresses, and it'll, and it'll just say, "I couldn't find the other four."

'Cause it doesn't know what it doesn't know.

It doesn't know what it doesn't know.

Yeah.

So the model is just like, like when should it stop? When should it stop doing... Like, should it, should it do that task for literally an hour and just keep cranking through? Maybe I actually made up an office location, and it doesn't know that I made it up, and I didn't even know that I made it up.

Like, should it just keep re- should it e- read every single file in your entire Box account until it, until it sh- exhausts every single piece of information?

Expensive.

These are the new problems that we have. So, you know, something like, let's say, a new Opus model is sort of like, "Okay, I'm gonna try these k- types of queries. I didn't get exactly what I wanted. I'm gonna try again.

I'm gonna... At some point I'm gonna stop searching 'cause I've determined that, that no amount of searching is gonna solve this problem. I'm just not able to do it." And that judgment is like a really new thing-

Yeah

... that the model needs to be able to have, is like when should it give up on a task 'cause, 'cause you just don't... it, it can't find the thing. That's the real world of knowledge work problems, and this is the stuff that the coding agents don't have to deal with- ...

'cause they, it just doesn't. Like, like you're not usually asking it about... You're, you're always creating net new information coming right out of the model, for the most part. Obviously, it has to know about your code base and your specs and your documentation, but, but when you deploy an agent on all of your data, that, now you have all of these new problems that you're dealing with.

Our, uh, follow-up research to context ride is actually on agentic search.

Oh.

Um, and we've like-

Great

... sort of stress-tested like frontier models and their ability to search, um, and they are not actually that good at searching.

Right.

Uh, so you're sort of highlighting this like explore exploit.

You're just a Debbie Downer. You say everything doesn't work, like

Well, somebody has to be. Um-

Can I just throw out one more thing-

Yeah

... that is different from coding and, and the rest of the knowledge work that I've, I've failed to mention. So one other kind of key point is, is that, you know, at the end of the day, whether you believe we're in a slopocalypse or, or whatever- ...

at the end of the day, if you, if you build a working product at the end of... If you, if you've built a working solution, that is ultimately what the customer is paying for. Like, whether I have a lot of slop, a little slop or whatever, I'm sure there's lots of code bases we could go into in enterprise software companies where it's like just crazy slop that humans did-

Yeah

... over a 20-year period. But the end customer just gets this little interface. They c- they can type into it. It does its thing. Knowledge work, uh, doesn't a- have that property. If I have an AI model go generate a contract, and I generate a contract 20 times, and, you know, all 20 times it's just 3% different- ...

and like that, I, that, that kind of slop introduces all new kinds of risk for my organization that the code version of that slop didn't, didn't introduce. These are... And so like so how do you constrain these models to just the part that you want them to work on and just do the thing that you want them to do?

And, and, you know, in engineering, we don't... You can't be disbarred as an engineer. You, you could be disbarred as a lawyer. Like, you can do the wrong medical thing in healthcare. You, there's no, there's no equivalent to that of engineering.

Like-

Do you want there to be? 'Cause I've considered-

Oh, what's that?

Civil engineering there is, right?

Civil engineering.

Yeah, software.

Sure. Oh yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

But like in any of our companies-

Yeah

... you like, you know, you'll be forgiven if you took down the site and, and we- ... we'll do a rollback- ... and you'll, you'll be in a meeting- ... but you have not been disbarred- ... as an engineer.

We don't, we don't change your, you know, your computer science, uh, degree.

Blame you for postmortem.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, so, uh, now maybe we collectively as an industry need to figure out like what are you liable for, not legally, but like in a, in a management sense, uh, of these agents. All sort- sorts of interesting problems that, that, that, uh, that have to come out.

But in knowledge work, that's the real hostile environments that we're operating in.

I do think like, uh, a lot of the last year's 2025 story was the rise of coding agents, and I think 2026 story is definitely knowledge work agents.

Yes, 100%.

Right? Like that would... And I think OpenCloud and CoWork are just the beginnings.

Yes.

Like it's the next round-

Yeah

... is gonna, just gonna be absolute craziness.

It, it is and, and, uh, and it's gonna be... I mean, again, like this is gonna be this, this wave where we, we are gonna try and bring as many of the practices from coding because that, that will clearly be the forefront, which is tell an agent to go do something.

It has an access to a set of resources. You need to be responsible for re- reviewing it at the end of the process. That to me is the, is the kind of template that I just think goes across knowledge work, and Odd CoWork is a great example.

OpenCloud's a great example. You know, you can kind of sort of see what Codex could become over time. These are some, some really interesting kind of platforms that are emerging. Okay, um, I wanted to, uh, we touched on evals a little bit.

You had, you had the re- report that you're gonna go bring up, and then I was gonna go into, like, uh, Box's evals.

Yeah.

But, uh, go ahead. C- talk, talk about your agentic search thing.

Yeah, mostly I think kind of a, a few of the insights is like everyone, frontier model is not good at search. Humans have this natural explore-exploit trade-off where we kind of understand, like, when to stop doing something. Also, humans are pretty good at, like, forgetting, actually, and like pruning their own context, whereas agents are not.

And actually an agent in their kind of context history, if they knew something was bad and even you can see in the trace, the reasoning trace, "Hey, that probably wasn't a good idea." If it's still in the trace-

Mm

... still in the context, they'll still do it again.

Uh-huh.

Uh, and so, like, I think pruning is also gonna be, like, a really... It's already becoming a thing, right? But letting models like self-prune their context windows-

Yeah

... could be a big deal.

So, so don't leave the mistake-

Um-

Don't leave the mistake in there. Cut out the mistake, but tell it that you made a mistake in the past and so it doesn't repeat it.

Yeah, like cut it out so it doesn't get, like, distracted by it again-

Yeah

... 'cause really, you know, what is-

So, so it will repeat its mistake just because it's been-

It's in the context

... it's in the context so much.

That's a few short example.

Even if it knows, even if it knows it... Like, it's like, "Oh, this is a great thing to go try"

Even if it doesn't even work.

Yeah.

Exactly. So there's like a bunch of stuff there that-

Oh, my gosh. Groundhog's Day inside these models.

Yeah.

I'm gonna go keep doing the same wrong thing forever.

Kind of makes sense, right? I feel like, you know, in some career now you're trying to like fit a manifold in latent space, which kind of is doing great program synthesis, which is kind of one way to think about like what LLMs are doing, right?

Like-

Yeah

... you know, certain facts might be like sort of overly pinning it-

Yeah

... to certain, you know, s- sec- sectors of latent space and so like-

Yeah

... plug latent space.

Yeah, exactly.

And, uh, and so-

We have to bell, uh, our editor adds a bell every time you say that.

You have- You have to like remove those, like-

You should have a gong like, uh, TVPN or something. It's like-

Yeah, you can gong. You have to remove those links to like kind of give it the freedom to kind of do what you need to do, so-

Yes

... but yeah, we'll, we're release more soon.

That's awesome. Yeah.

Yeah.

That'll, that'll be cool.

We're a cerebral podcast that people listen to us and, and sort of think really deep. So-

Yeah

... go, uh, we try to keep it subtle.

No gong. Okay.

We try to keep it subtle.

Okay, fine.

Um, you, you guys, you guys do have evals. You talked about your-

Yep

... your office thing, but, uh, you've been also promoting Apex agents and complex work.

Yep.

Uh, whatever you, wherever you wanna take this, just-

Yeah

... how you...

Apex is, is obviously in our course, uh, uh, kind of, um, a- agent eval. We, we supported that by sort of opening up some data for them around how we kinda see these, um, data workspaces in, in the, you know, kind of regular economy.

So how do lawyers have a workspace? How do investment bankers have a workspace? What kind of data goes into those? And so we, we partner with them on their, their Apex eval. Our own, um, eval is... So it's actually relatively straightforward.

We have a, a set of, of documents in a, in a range of industries. We give the agent previously did this as a one-shot test of just purely the model, and then we just realized we, we need to, based on where everything's going, it's just gotta be more agentic.

So now it's a bit more of a test of both our harness and the model, and we have a rubric of a set of things it has to get right, and we score it. Um, and you're just seeing, you know, these incredible jumps in almost every single model in its own family of, you know, Opus for, um, you know, Sonnet four six versus Sonnet four five.

Yeah, we have this up on screen.

Okay, cool. So some- you're seeing it somewhere like, I, I forget the to- it was like 15 point jump, I think on the main, on the overall.

Yes.

And it's just like, you know, these incredible leaps that, that are starting to happen. Um, and-

And, Anthropic doesn't know it, like any... It's completely held out from Anthropic, right?

This is not in any-

Yeah

... there's no public data, which has, m- you know, ben- benefits. And this is just a private eval that we do-

Yeah

... and then we just happen to show it to, to the world.

Mm.

So you can't, you can't train against it. And I think it just is representative of, you know, it's obviously reasoning capabilities, what it's doing it at, you know, kind of test time compute capabilities, thinking levels, all, like the context rot issues.

So many interesting, you know, kind of, uh, uh, capabilities that are, that are now improving.

One sector that you have that's interesting, uh, people are roughly familiar with healthcare and legal, but you have public sector in there.

Yeah.

Uh, what's that like? What, what is that?

Yeah. And, and we actually test against, I don't know, maybe 10 industries. We-

Yeah

... we end up usually just cutting a few that we think have interesting gains. So public sector is one. A lot of like government type documents. Um-

What is that? What is a government type documents? Like-

Government filings

... like a tax return? Like a-

Probably not tax returns. It would be more of what would g- the government be using, uh, as data. So-

Okay

... um, so think about research, that, that type of, of, of data sets. And then we have financial services for things like data rooms and what would be in an-

Yes

... investment prospectus.

Uh-huh. That one you can dogfood.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yes. Yes. So, uh, so we, we run the models, um, in now, you know, more of an agent mode, but, but still with, with kind of limited capacity and just try and see like on a like for like basis, what are the improvements.

And, and again, we just continue to be blown away by how, how good these models are getting.

Yeah. I, I mean, I think every serious AI company needs something like that where like, well, this is the work we do. Here's our company eval.

Yeah.

And if you don't have it, well, you're not a serious AI company.

There's two dimensions, right? So there's, there's like, how are the models improving? And so which model should you either recommend a customer use? Which one should you adopt? But then every single day we're making changes to our agents, and you need to know-

If you regress

... if you know... Yeah. You know, I've been fully convinced that the whole agent observability and eval space is gonna be a massive space. Um, super excited for what BrainTrust is doing, excited for, you know, LangSmith, all the things.

And I think what you're gonna... I- I mean, this is like every enter- like literally every enterprise. W- right now it's like the AI companies are the customers of these tools. Every enterprise will have this.

Yeah.

You'll just have to have an eval of all of your work. And like, we'll h- you'll have an eval of your RFP generation. You'll have an eval of your sales material creation. You'll have an eval of your, uh, invoice processing.

And, and as you, you know, buy or use new agentic systems, you are gonna need to know, like, what's the quality of your, of your pipeline.

Yeah.

Um, so huge, huge market with agent evals.

Yeah. And, and, you know, I'm gonna shout out your, your team a bit. Uh, your CTO, Ben, uh, did a great talk with us last year-

Awesome. Yeah

... and he's gonna come back again-

Oh, cool

... for, for World's Fair.

Yep.

Just talk about your team.

Yeah.

Like, you know, brag a little bit.

Yeah.

Like, you know, I think, I, I think people take these eval numbers and pretty charts as for granted, but no, there, I mean, there's, there's lots of really smart people at work doing all this.

Biggest shout-out, uh, is we have, we have a couple folks, Aditya, uh, Siddharth, uh, that, that kind of run this. They're like a, you know, kind of tag, tag team duo on our evals. Ben, our CTO, heavily involved.

Yasha, head of AI. Uh, you know, a bunch of folks. And, um, eval's one part of the story. And then just like the full, you know, kind of AI and agent team is, uh, is a, is a pretty, you know, is core to this whole effort.

So there's probably, I don't know, like- Maybe a few dozen people that are like the epicenter, and then you just have like layers and layers of, of kind of concentric circles of, okay, then there's a search team that supports them and an infrastructure team that supports them, and it's starting to ripple through the entire company.

Uh, but there's that kind of core agent team, um, that's a pretty, pretty close, uh, close-knit group.

The search team is separate from the infra team?

I mean, we have like every, every layer of the stack we have to kind of do except for just pure public cloud. Um, but, um, you know, we, we store... I don't even know what our public numbers are and, you know, but like you can just think about it as like a lot of data i- is, is stored in Box.

And so we have, you have every layer of the, of the stack of, you know, how do you manage the data, the file system, the metadata system, the search system, just all of those components. And then they all are having to understand that now you've got this new customer, which is the agent, and they've been building for two types of customers in the past.

They've been building for users, and they've been building for like applications, and now you've got this new agent user, and it comes in with a different set of properties sometimes like, hey, maybe sometimes we should do embeddings, an embedding base, you know, kind of search versus, you know, your, your typical semantic search.

Like it's just like you have to build the, the capabilities to support all of this, and we're testing stuff, throwing things away, something doesn't work and, and not relevant. It's like just, you know, total chaos. But, but all of those teams are supporting the agent team that is kind of coming up with its requirements of what, what do we need.

Yeah, the, uh, we just came from, uh, Fireside Chat where you did, and you, you talked about how you're doing this. It's, it's kind of like an internal startup-

Yeah

... within the broader company. The broader company is like three thousand people.

Yeah.

But, you know, uh, there's, there's a, this is a core team of like, well, here's the innovation center.

Yeah.

And like the... every company kind of r- is run this way.

Yeah. I wanna be sensitive. I don't call it the innovation center-

Yeah

... only because I think everybody has to do innovation. Um, there's, there's a part of the, the, the company that is, is sort of do or die for the agent wave.

Yeah.

And it only happens to be more of my focus simply because it's existential that we get it right.

Yeah.

All of the supporting systems are necessary. All of the surrounding adjacent capabilities are necessary. Like the only reason we get to be a platform where you'd run an agent is because we have a security feature or a compliance feature or a governance feature that, that some team is working on, but that's not gonna be the make or break of, of whether we get agents right.

Like that already exists, and we need to keep innovating there.

Mm.

I don't know what the right exact precise number is, but it's not a thousand people, and it's not ten people. There's a number of people that are like the, the kind of like, you know, startup within the company that ha- are the make or break on everything related to AI agents, you know, leveraging our platform and letting you work with your data, and that's where I spend a lot of my time.

And Ben and Yash and Diego and Tiri, you know, these are just, you know, people that, that, you know, ha- kind of across the team are working.

Yeah. Amazing.

How do you, how do you think about... I mean, you talked a lot about like kind of read workflows over your Box data.

Yep.

Like, you know, agentic search, questions, queries, et cetera. But like what about like write or like authoring workflows?

Yes. I've already probably revealed too much actually now that I think about it. So, um- ... I've talked about-

Wherever, wherever you can.

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

It's just us. It's just us.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, of course. Of course. Of course. So I, I guess I would just, uh, I'll make it a little bit conceptual, uh, because again, I've already, I've already said things that are not even GA, but, but we've, we've kind of like danced around it publicly, so I've-

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Just like hopefully nobody watches this, um, episode.

No, it's tidbits for the highly engaged to go figure out like what exactly, um, you know, is, is your sort of line of thinking.

Sure.

They can connect the dots.

Yeah. So, so I would say that, that, uh, we, you know, as a, as a place where you have your enterprise content, there is a use case where I want to, you know, have an agent read that data and answer questions for me, and then there's a use case where I want the agent to create something and use the file system to create something or store off data that it's working on or be able to have, you know, various files that it's writing to about the work it's doing.

So w- we do see it as a total read write. The harder problem has so far been the read only because-

Mm

... because again, you have that kind of like ten million to one ratio problem, whereas writes are a lot of that's just gonna come from the model and, and we just like we'll just put it in the file system and kind of use it.

So it's a little bit of a technically easier problem, but the only part that's like, not gonna say technically hard, it's just like it's not yet perfected in the state of the ecosystem is, you know, building a beautiful PowerPoint presentation is still a hard problem-

Mm

... for these models. Like, like we still- ... you know, like, like the, these formats are just n- were not built for-

They're working on it.

They're wor- they're working on it. Everybody's working on it.

Every launch is like, "Well, we can do a PowerPoint now."

Yeah, we're get- yeah, getting a lot-

Yeah.

... getting a lot better each time.

Yeah.

But then you'll do this thing where you'll ask the update one slide, and all of a sudden like the fonts will be just like a little bit different, you know, on two of the slides-

Mm. Mm

... or it moved-

Mm

... you know, some shape over to the left a little bit. And again, these are the kind of things that like in code obviously you could really care about if you really care about, you know, how beautiful is the code, but at the end user doesn't notice all those problems.

In file creation, the end user instantly sees it. You're like, "All right, right like paragraph three, like you literally just changed the font on me. Like it's a totally different font, and like midway through the document."

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Those are the kind of things that you run into a lot of in the, the, in the content creation side.

Mm. Mm. Mm.

So we're gonna have native agents that do all of those things. They'll be powered by the leading kind of models and labs. But the thing that I think is, is probably gonna be a much bigger idea over time is any agent on any system, again, using Box as a file system for its work.

Mm.

And in that kind of scenario, we don't necessarily care what it's putting in the file system. It could put its memory files. It could put its, you know, specification, you know, documents. It could put, you know, whatever its markdown files are, or it could, you know, generate PDFs.

It's just like it's a workspace that is, is sort of sandboxed off for its work. People can collaborate into it. It can share with other people. And, and so we, we're thinking a lot about what's the right, you know, kind of way to, to deliver that at scale.

I wanted to come into sort of the sort of AI transformation or AI sort of, uh, operations things. Um, one of the tweets that you, that you wanna talk about. This is just me going through your tweets, by the way.

Oh, okay.

I mean, like, like this is-

Okay, okay.

We're having you read his tweets.

You're gonna read them one by one. Okay.

You're the, you're the easiest guest to prep for-

Okay

... because you, you already have like this is the, this is what I'm interested in.

Okay.

And I'm like, "Okay, well I can-"

Are we gonna get to like J- like February, January or something? Where are we in the, in the timeline? So how far back are we going?

Can you, can you describe Box as a set of skills, right? Like that, that's like, that's like one of the- ... extremes of like, well, if you c- you just turn everything into a markdown file-

Yeah

... then your agent can run your company. Uh, but you just have to write, find the right sequence of words to -

Yes

... to do it.

Oh, sorry. Is that the question?

So, so, so, so I think the question is like-

Okay, I'm sorry

... like, what, what if we documented everything-

Yes

... the way that you exactly said, like-

Yes

... um, let's get all the Fortune 500s, uh, prepared for agents-

Yes

... and like, you know, everything's in Golden and, and nicely filed away and everything.

Yes.

What's missing? Like, what's left, right? Like-

Yeah

... you, you, you've run your company for a decade. Like-

Yeah. I think the challenge is that, that, that information changes a week later.

Hmm.

And because-

Mm-hmm

... something happened in the market for that customer or us as a company that now has to go get updated. And so these systems are living and breathing, and they have to experience reality and updates to reality, which right now is probably gonna be humans, you know, kind of giving those, gi- giving them the updates.

And, you know, there is this piece about context graphs, uh, as, uh, that kind of went v-

Yes

... very viral.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, on, on the pod.

And I, I, I was like a, I, I, I thought it was super r- provocative. I agreed with many parts of it. I disagree with a few parts around, you know, it's not gonna be as easy as, as just if we just had the agent traces, then we can finally do that work because there's just like, there's so much more other stuff that, that's happening that, that we haven't been able to capture and digitize.

And I think they actually represented that in the piece, to be clear. But like, there's just a lot of work, you know, that, that has to... You just can't have only skills files, you know, for your company because there's just gonna be like, there's gonna be a lot of other stuff that happens.

Yeah. Change over time.

Yeah. Um-

'Cause most companies are practically apprenticeships.

Most companies are practically apprenticeships. Yeah. Like-

Like every new employee who joins the team, like you spend one to three months like ramping them up.

Yes. Yeah.

All that tacit knowledge-

Yes

... is not written down.

Yes.

But like it would have to be if you wanted to like, give it to an agent, right? And so like, that seems to me like to be-

One is I think you're gonna see, again, a premium on companies that can document this-

Mm-hmm

... much. There'll be a huge premium on that because, because, you know, can you shorten that three-month ramp cycle to a two-week w- ramp cycle? That's an instant productivity gain. Can you re- dramatically reduce rework in the organization because you've documented where all the stuff is and where the answers are?

Can you make your average employee as good as your 90th percentile employee because you've captured the knowledge that's sort of in the heads of, of those top employees and make that available? So like, you can see some very clear productivity benefits-

Mm-hmm

... if you had a company culture of making sure, you know, your information was captured, digitized, put in a format that was agent ready, and then made available to agents to work with. And then you just again have this reality of like at a 10,000-person company, mapping that to the, you know, access structure of the company is just a hard problem.

It's like, it's like, yeah, well, you just, not every piece of information that's digitized can be shared to everybody, and so now you have to organize that in a way that actually works. There was a pretty good piece, um, this, this, uh, this piece called Your Company as a File is a File System.

Mm-hmm.

I don't know, did you see that one?

Nope.

Uh, yes.

You saw it? Yeah. And, and, uh, I, I actually would be curious your thoughts on it. Um, like, like an interesting kind of like we, we agree with it because, because that's how we see the world. And, uh-

Okay. But-

We have, we have it up on screen

... yeah.

Okay. But, but it's all about basically like, you know, we've already s- we, we, we're already organized in this kind of like, you know, permission structure way. Uh, and, and these are the kind of n- you know, natural ways that, that agents can now work with data, so it's kinda like this, this, you know, kinda interesting metaphor.

But I do think companies will have to start to think about how they start to digitize more, more of that data. What was your take?

Yeah, I mean, like the company's probably like an ACID-compliant file system.

Ah.

Which I'm guessing Box is, right?

Oh.

So yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

But you have a great piece on it, but...

Uh, yeah. Well, uh- ... I, I, my, my, my direction is a little bit like I wanna rewind a little bit to the graph word. You said that that's, that's the, the tr- magic trigger word for us.

Mm.

I always ask what's your take on knowledge graphs.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Uh, because every, especially at every data, database person, I just wanna see what they think. There's been knowledge graphs, high cycles, and you've seen it all, so.

Hmm.

I actually am not the expert in knowledge graphs. So, so that we might need to re-

You, you don't need to be an expert.

Yeah.

I, I think it's just like, well, how, how seriously do people take it?

Yeah.

Like, is, is, is there a lot of potential in a, in a HoBI? Um-

Um, well, can, can I, uh, understand first if it's, um, is this a loaded question in the sense of are you super pro, super con-

No

... super anti medium in the-

I see pro-

Okay

... I see pros and cons.

Okay.

Uh, but I, I think your opinion should be independent of mine.

Yeah. No, no, totally.

Yeah.

I just wanna see what I'm stepping into.

No. I know it's a, and it's a huge trigger word for a lot of people out-

Yeah

... uh, in our audience, and they're, they're trying to figure out-

Why is it?

Because they, they-

You're like, "Why is this such a hot, uh-

Because-

... item for them?"

... because a lot of people get graph religion.

Okay.

And they're like, "Everything's a graph. Like of course you have to represent it as a graph." Well, how do you solve your knowledge, um, changing over time? Well, it's a graph.

Yeah.

And, and I think there, there's that line of work-

Yeah

... and then there's, there's a lot of people who are like, "Well, you don't need it." And both are right.

Yeah. And what do the people who say you don't need it, what are they arguing for?

Markdown files.

Oh, sure, sure. Yeah.

Simplicity-

Yeah

... versus, it's, it's structure versus less structure, right? That's, that's all that really is.

I do, I think the tricky thing is, um, is, is again, when this gets met with real humans, they're just going to their computer, they're just working with some people on Slack or Teams, they're just sharing some data through a collaborative file system in Google Docs or Box or whatever.

I certainly like the vision of most, most knowledge graph, you know, kind of futuristic y- kind of ways of thinking about it. Uh, it's just like, you know, it's 2026, we haven't seen it yet kind of play out as, as...

I mean, I remember, do you, you remember the, um, in like, actually, I don't, I don't even know how old you guys are, but the, I'll, for, for, to show my age, I remember 17 years ago, everybody thought enterprises would just run on wikis.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Confluence.

And, uh, and that, and, and, and not even, I mean, Con- Confluence actually took off for engineering for sure.

Yeah.

Like unquestionably. But like this was like everything would be in the wiki. And I think based on our, uh, our, uh, general style of, of, of what we were building, like we were just like, I don't know, people just like want a workspace, they're gonna collaborate with other people.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So you were, you were anti-knowledge graph.

Not anti. Not anti.

All right.

It's some of-

You're non, non

... I, I'm not, I'm not anti because I think it- ... I think your search system, I just think these are two systems that probably n- uh, but like I'm, I'm not in any religious war. I don't wanna be in anybody's YouTube comments on this.

This is not a fight for me.

We, we love the YouTube comments.

We're, we're-

Get in the comments.

Okay. Uh- ... but like I, I, it's mostly just a virtue of what we built.

Yeah.

And we just continued down that path.

Yeah, yeah.

And, um, and that, that was what we pursued. Uh, but I'm not, this is not a- You know, kind of this is not a-

It's not existential for you. Great.

We're happy to plug into somebody else's graph. We're happy to feed data into it. We're happy for agents to, to talk to multiple systems. Not, not our fight.

Yeah.

But I need your answer.

Yeah. Graphs are nerd snipes. It's, it's very effective nerd snipe.

See? See?

Yeah.

This is, this is one s- one opinion and then I've-

Yeah. And I, I think that the actual graph structure is emergent in the mind of the agent.

Ah.

In the same way that it is in the mind of the human, and that's a more powerful graph because it actually can evolve over time.

So don't, don't tell me how to graph. I'll, I'll figure it out myself.

Exactly.

Okay. All right.

And what, what's yours?

I like the, the wiki approach. I'm a- I'm actually like if, uh... You know, obviously I spend some of my time at Cognition, which, uh, you, you know very well.

Yep.

And they've had a lot of success with DeepWiki.

Yeah.

It powers a lot of DevonBrain.

Super powerful.

And it's su- it's useful for humans, but it's, oh my God, it's useful for agents.

Yes.

Mm.

Tell me if you think I'm, I'm wrong on this, but, but not much of an access control structure issue.

No.

It's like the whole... You get the whole code base and everybody gets to it.

Well, before, before I speak too much-

They'll love it. Yeah

... there, there, there may be some enterprise controls on-

Sure

... the, the enterprise DeepWiki-

Okay

... offering that I'm not familiar with.

Yeah.

But yeah, I don't, I don't have any-

Yeah

... anything on the public side. But yeah, I, I think like al- almost like every agent should have its own wiki that it's updating, and that's-

Mm

... persistent memory and-

Yeah

... uh, that is a very weak knowledge graph.

Yeah.

And you, you could strengthen it if you want more structure, but you may not need it.

Yeah.

Markdown files having links in wiki style, right?

Yep.

Very effective.

Right.

Lindy.

Yep.

I like that as a, as a just general pattern. Um, okay. So, uh, last couple questions.

Sure.

But feel free to jump on in or, or if you want any rants. Um, I see you as a very interesting and, and unusual founder, where like you've been in the business and you're, uh, you're both like, you're of like, of two worlds.

Like you're of Silicon Valley, but you're also of the Fortune 500s, and like I feel like your kind of founder mode is very different from the Brian Chesky founder mode. And I'm just kinda curious if you have like ref- reflections on like how you operate as a founder.

What would his founder mode be?

Don't delegate.

Ah, right. And w- how would you put me?

You do delegate.

Ah. Okay. I, I, I see. The um, I think the... I, I don't know that Brian w- and I would be that far removed from each other when you get to the specifics.

Okay.

So there's a whole bunch that I delegate. 90% of the work that happens at Box is fully, you know, fully delegated. We've got great leaders running, running all that stuff. It's just too much for my brain to handle, and probably 70% of the work...

I'm gonna make up all the numbers here. Probably 70% of the work at Box, or 70, 80% of the work at Box, I only need to really look at about 5% of that for like some high leverage decisions to be involved in.

You know, what's the marketing message that we think is gonna resonate with, with customers? So that's a little bit of high leverage thing that, that, that we do in marketing, but most of marketing activities I don't get involved in.

What's our sales pitch? Maybe I'll be involved in that a little bit, or like what's roughly the investments or push we're gonna do in certain verticals? You know, that's about 5% of like the total bandwidth of, you know, the str- the, the key areas of sales or go to market.

Okay. So like 70, 80% of the company I can just do about 5%, and then, and then just like operationally we've got great leaders and they're gonna execute on that, and we collaborate on the 5% anyway. It's not like I'm just like making up a decision and saying to go and do it.

Then there's this part that is like the existential part of the business, which is if we don't do this right, we're out of business, and, uh, by virtue of just being a founder you get kinda sucked into that part of the work because you can feel it.

Like this is like, like you can just see how the AI tsunami could wipe you out if you make just two, three, four, five wrong decisions in this space. Like couple wrong architecture decisions, couple wrong AI feature decisions, couple wrong API platform decisions and, and you might be out of the game in a year from now.

And like you just feel it in your bones. You, you know this. Uh, like it's just like, like, like we feel this all day long in this space given what's happening.

Mm.

And so that, in that area, it's... you can't kinda delegate in the classic sense. You still need to make sure you've got great leaders and strong hires and people that, that are, have high agency, 'cause they wanna be able to, to own part of the, the strategy and the roadmap or else you can't hire good people.

But, but, you know, there's gonna be a lot of little micro forks in the road that they will compound to determine whether you succeed or fail. And so your kinda founder energy just like automatically draws you into, into those because, because they are the determining decisions of, of your company's future.

And that's kinda where I spend my time and I... And you have to kinda, you know, do it in a collaborative way, again, because if you are only dictatorial and just, you know, you just won't, won't eventually be able to hire the best people 'cause they won't wanna work on that environment.

But you also just can't like abdicate all the responsibility because the risks are, are just simply too high. Like, and so you have to somehow obviously add some value, and so the value I add is I've seen 20 years of this business, so I, I think I can kinda piece together what I expect the value propositions are gonna be and how customers will react to certain things.

So that's what I can bring to the table, and then you have this kinda existential fear of if I get it wrong, it's all on me anyway. I don't get to blame- ... you know, you know, the engineer that was working on that project.

Like it's all, it's, it's, it's my fault, right? Like at the end of the day it'll be my fault if it doesn't work. So by virtue of, of that liability, uh, responsibility, you just get pulled into needing to make sure like it's all going a- according to, to kinda how you think it needs to end up.

It's exciting.

I don't know if, I don't know how Brian would answer that, I guess, but like I, I, yeah.

It's a long essay. It's an interesting essay. People should go and compare and contrast your answer-

Yeah

... versus his. Uh, I do think that, um, systems have a way of letting entropy get to them.

Yep.

And you, you, if you step away for too long, you need to have a way to like check in and go-

Yep

... like, "Well, do I need to come back in or are we good?" And people are gonna tell you things are good, but they're not good.

Yes. Yes. 100%.

Yeah.

And that's actually, I'm, um, I'm a fan of actually process for the, that 70 to 80%.

Yeah.

So that 70 to 80%, the process is you're gonna do, uh, you- You know, a quarterly business review and you're gonna have a brand check-in and you're gonna do those th- like you're gonna make sure that, that you're seeing all the, the right episodes of, of what's changing and, and h- and how it's kind of, you know, evolving and, and make sure it's kinda going the right direction.

And then there's some areas which is like, no, it's 24/7. Like, like I guarantee after this podcast, at 11:00 PM I'll be doing a Zoom with Ben-

Uh-huh

... uh, and probably some other people 'cause we're gonna be talking about agents and, and new platform features. And like-

That's amazing

... that's your just in the cauldron, you know, kinda grinding on, on, on that side.

Yeah. Yeah. That's, uh, that's extremely, um, realistic as to-

Yeah. Yeah

... like what it, what it's like.

Yeah.

And I just wanna have people hear your perspective on what it-

And this is the-

What do you like, dislike

... this is this like, um, you read the post about, you know, everybody having agents running on the weekend and, um, and it's like, uh, you know, you, you just, i- I mean, first of all, anybody crazy enough to come to Silicon Valley, like we don't bring good news about the sort of like healthiness of our environment right now.

Like, like, like you, you have to-

Like sleep and yeah

... you have to know what you're signing up for.

Yeah.

But like-

Yeah

... like, you know-

Yes

... there, there's a real issue which is like, shoot, do I have enough agents running and, and-

Oh, yeah. I, I made a meme that was like semi viral for me but-

Yes

... about this like-

That was incredible

... yeah, exactly. That's it.

And, and, and that, that was-

You can't even enjoy a party these days-

No, because-

... 'cause you're working with your tokens and s-

You, there's compute out there that you're not utilizing.

I know. Like what the hell? Like-

So like there's a duty here

... I paid for the $200.

Yeah.

I'm gonna spend the $200.

Yeah.

Uh, I'm gonna spend $6,000 out of the $200.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. We need to make Anthropic very unprofitable. So.

Yeah, yeah. We're not doing a good enough job. Cool. I have a closing question if you, unless you ...

I, I have a question.

Yeah.

I've asked this question in private before, but I'm gonna ask it again, which is, um, it's a question that Tyler Cowen asks his guests on his podcast, which is, uh, what is the Aaron Levie production function? And, uh-

Oh, I love that

... I love this question because there are so few people that I think are good at both executing but also like distilling and like just putting good ideas into the ether.

Mm.

And you put a lot of good ideas into the ether. And so like what is the Aaron Levie production function that allows you, you to do that versus others?

How do I get that information or-

I c- I can give you-

Yeah

... an, a, a variant-

Yeah, yeah

... which is what goes into Aaron Levie-

Yeah

... and what goes out and how does it-

Yeah

... churn inside.

I'm just trying to think of, 'cause I mean, you know, there's some very, like I just read a lot of Twitter, uh, as well, and so like I just-

And you've-

Yeah

... spent a lot of effort curating your feed.

The contrast, you don't see like great mini essays from Brian Chesky every day.

Uh-

But you do from you.

Oh, yeah. Well-

And you're kind of weird in that way.

So why?

Maybe he's health- maybe he's healthier than me actually. We should just like- ... we should just text him to see if, you know, he's got a m-

I think he does work out.

Yeah, yeah.

He, he got bigger muscles.

I, what I think, I, I work out less than him. And I tweet more than him so- ... so that's the, that's how we're balancing things out. I'm, um, I mostly the way I just think about it is, uh, is just, um, you know, there's, there's lots of work that's happening in the business.

I'm getting to see the all the problems that we are running into constantly and I'm trying to, uh, be a little bit of a, create a flywheel between what we're doing internally, what, what, what then we talk about, uh, getting a feedback loop on that and seeing other people's, you know, experiences of what they're doing, bring that back into the business.

And, and so I just see the, uh, like my job as, as, you know, hopefully being able to kinda connect the dots of, of what's going on in the world with what's going on in Box, and then I just happen to tweet about that along the way.

Yeah.

Um, because-

It's all you. There's no like-

Yeah

... editor.

No, it's all me.

There's no ... Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow.

The, uh, I got, um, there was a funny, uh, uh, my, I, I tried to get an internship in, um, between freshman and sophomore year of this company and it was a, it was a film s- uh, kind of production company in New York, and, uh, I got the internship and then I emailed my liaison kind of guy who sponsored me for the internship and I said, "Hey, I'd like to do a blog of my summer internship-"

Mm

... "where I blog about-

Mm

... you know, the, the being an intern at a production company in New York." And about like a, I don't know, half a day, a day later, uh, they re- emailed me back saying they've rescinded the internship.

No.

Um, uh, yeah. Because, because I showed a lack of judgment on, you know, professionalism, you know, or whatever. Like, like just even the, the idea that I would ask that question, red flags went up of like, "Who the fuck is this guy?"

So anyway, I, I only say that to say that like-

Mm

... like to me just like, you know, building in public-

Mm

... is just like a natural, is a natural thing. And so I, so I just, you know, go through the day. We, we deal with interesting problems, I tweet about them, I get information back in the process. I, I see your work, I see your work.

You know, I see a bunch of folks and, and try and, you know, kind of incorporate that back into Box. My job is to try and connect all these things together and, uh, and make, make it useful. That's-

And you're, I mean, you're the number one spokesperson, right? So you do have to be out there.

Yeah. I but I, I kinda would be doing it whether or not-

Yeah.

Like it's like I don't really think of it as a job requirement as much as like I just like, I like social media.

You're just, you're so good at it.

Yeah.

It's still hard to believe. So like-

Okay. Sorry.

Do you get up at 5:00 AM?

Oh.

With coffee?

Yeah.

Is that your secret?

It's like how do you work?

Are you, do you actually do this like in the back of Waymos? Like is, do you do it that way? Like how do you do this?

It's, it's-

Right? It's like-

... well, no, it's mo- it's mo- it's mostly that though. It's mostly, uh, there's a, you know, I, I, I have a commute home each night. I try and see, you know, my kids most, most weekdays before I have to hop back online, so there's like a 20-minute window there-

Yeah

... where I can kinda like distill the information that's happened-

Wow

... and, and be like, ah, is there anything I learned today that would be interesting to throw out there or anything that I saw? And then probably somewhere between like- 7:30 and 9:00 PM, I finally get a chance to like look through the feed- Mm ...

and see like, did anything crazy happen in AI? And, um, uh, and then that's, that will also kind of catalyze, you know, something. Mm. Yep. As like that's the best I can kind of- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... you know?

Respect. Yeah. Okay, thanks. Uh, now I know you- you're cut off is 8:00 PM. I will try to get AI news out before 8:00 PM so I can help him- Yeah ... do, do his thing. But basically, if, if I don't see it before 7:00 to 8:30, I'm not gonna- Yeah, it's, I mean- I'm not gonna be able to like quote tweet or something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, 'cause, uh- Yeah ... 'cause then I'm back on Zoom after that. Yeah. So. I wasn't gonna plan, plan, plan on asking this, but you've mentioned, yeah, you mentioned the film stuff. Yeah. And I know from one of my favorite parts of doing a research on you was that, uh, you got the idea for Box from like the, the Paramount lot- Yeah ...

uh, pushing paper. Uh, are you a film guy? You, you a big- I am. I, I, I, I, I would say I used to be more of a film guy. Yeah. Um- What, what's your, what, what, what are your favorites if you have, you wanted to list off any?

Kind of the classic, uh, wannabe film student classics. Pul- Are we talking Scorsese? You know- Tarantino? P- Pulp Fiction- Yeah ... Magnolia, Requiem for a Dream. Basically like if there was an art house film in the '90s- ...

uh, to early 2000s, that was my genre. Yeah. That got me into like, wow, wouldn't it be cool to do, you know, you know, film? And then I, I thought maybe I could connect digital into it. Like, could you, could you do film online?

That just seemed too hard from a licensing standpoint. And then- ... obviously Netflix, you know, kind of existed. Um, so I, I never quite was able to fully connect the dots on these things, but the internship at Paramount- Mm ...

um, was one kind of catalyst for starting Box because we were using just traditional enterprise software and I was like, wow, it's like really hard to share data. Uh, you know, just like files going back and forth. Um, but the same thing was happening in school as well, and so that all led to, led to Box basically.

Um, well A24 is, uh, you know, kind of giving back this sort of resurgence of the independent film, I guess- 100% ... um, uh, in, in, in s- in the face of all the Marvel slop. Uh, you know, I was thinking about this the other day and A24 is, you know, uh, certainly the best, uh, e- e- example, I'm sure of, of this today.

But, um, you know, they just don't, you know, you- it's, it's hard to make a film, uh, like, you know, No Country for Old Men or, um, There Will Be Blood. Like, like w- what is that movie today?

Yeah. Like, what is a brand-new movie that is just like original? You just, you, you just watch it and you're like, "What, what did I just watch?" So my, my, you know, swyx's movie bench is, uh, Forrest Gump.

Okay. Which iconic in its time. Yeah, yep, 100%. And then never again. Yeah. Yeah. We, we did not make, we don't know how to make Forrest Gump anymore. Um- We'll try it with the sequel though at some point.

Yeah. For sure. I, I, honestly- Forrest Gump 2 in 30 years ... I would be fine with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that Forrest Gump has a kid. He's still running. Yeah, e- ex- he's still running. Exactly. Um, I think Forrest Gump has a grandkid would be like a good movie.

Like, what is the grandkid of Forrest Gump doing in, uh, in 2026? Forrest Gump goes tropical. Yeah. But, um, yeah, I definitely, let's lo- I wanna see good, I wanna see more movies out there. You know, I'm a little bit conflicted on AI and film- Hm ...

because- Oh, that. Let's hear that ... well, because I, um, uh, the world does not need more slop on, on AI entertainment, but I'm kind of like in a mode where I think that AI is, is, is gonna be, you know, generally a pure positive because if I'm a, if I was me 25 years ago in high school, for sure I would be making a full production film that had explosions and car chases and, but then there'd be like people that would show up there.

So like I think that ability to- Hm ... to just, you get to be Spielberg, you know, is, is, you know, completely amazing and, and democratizing that is incredible. And I, you know, I'm, I'm concerned about like how do you make sure that we still get PT Anderson- Mm-hmm ...

along the way and, and can we make sure that those, those guys exist? And then interestingly, I never, and I never saw it, but Darren Aronofsky, I, I believe has either put out or is gonna put out a, an AI film.

You know, even some of the best artists are, are, you know, starting to adopt this. But, um, uh, but yeah, I, I definitely don't want to... What I don't wanna do is just be like in this like TikTok feed of just films.

Mm. And it's just like, oh, this film about the car chase that does this thing and, and it says like, we don't need that. Like- Yeah ... like, like this should be a form of entertainment and art and let's use AI to accelerate the production process, do the really hard CG work that, that you just, you had to spend way too much money on previously to do the, you know, kinda like let's, let's use it to test out all new kind of plot ideas, um- Yeah, previz.

Yeah, exactly. Like backgrounds. And that's incredible. Like whatever. And all those things are super incredible. I still like the, it's very nostalgic, but I still like the idea of like this is a camera and a person and a person that says, you know, action, uh- ...

and then, and let's hopefully like surround AI around that. We'll- Yeah ... but we'll, we'll see how that plays out. Yeah. I think, you know, so one of the things that stability AI, uh, made an impression on me was like, well, you know, at least now we can remake Game of Thrones Season 8.

And again, you know, uh, like, like it was meant to be not, uh, not rushed. Yeah. And then you watch, um, I have a six-and-a-half-year-old and I, you know, you see a lot of these kid movies and you're like, "Yeah, that probably will be AI."

I don't totally know the job math 'cause I don't know how many animators there are today, but I actually think weirdly, I think we could be producing more high quality, maybe even slightly educational kids entertainment. Ah, yeah. And so it's, maybe that's a positive is like we could just have like more, like you could just have a Pixar for like, you know, things where kids learn stuff and it used to be these like very, you know, lo-fi, uh, you know, kind of lesson things.

I mean, we had Teletubbies, you know? Yeah. That, that was so slow. Exactly. So, so we, we, we could have way more of that and, and maybe every animator that today is making a Pixar film is now, you know, we're like we fragment that out and, uh, but now they're responsible for more content and they've got AI agents running.

So like, so, so I think there's some optimistic scenarios on the entertainment side is like there's a lot of great use cases for being able to do, you know, generative media. Yeah, yeah. Um- Edu- edutainment as well. I guess one question I have is it's kind of like a self-serving one and almost like an advice-

Uh, side of the, the, the, the question. One of the things I just, uh, really enjoyed, uh, researching you was that, uh, Michael Arrington had some influence in the Box journey because you went to his house party.

Yes.

And then that's how you got funding.

Yes.

One of Latent Space's... That's a deep cut, right?

Yeah, very deep cut. That's a '06 deep cut.

Yeah. Uh, do you, I mean, do you wanna tell that story? I don't know if you've told it that much.

It's not even much of a story.

Yeah.

Uh, 'cause, uh, partly 'cause-

It's like a random intro, right? Like ...

Um, well, it was just he used to have house parties.

Yeah.

Uh, TechCrunch had, had these house parties, and, and it was, um, probably no different than somebody's doing a house party in SF. Uh, you know.

Just go. Yeah.

Yeah, you just go, and you meet the VCs and founders. And, like, I'm gonna make up examples, so I don't want to... Like, you know, there'd be, like, Chad Hurley over there pitching his, you know, YouTube to people.

And, like, uh, like, that's just, like, how it worked. And it was just like, wow, like, that was this era where all these new companies were, were emerging. And I met our, our first investor, uh, in Silicon Valley at one of these house parties, Emily Melton, who then brought us into DFJ.

DFJ. Yeah.

That became our Series A. So that was all because of Arrington's, uh, backyard party.

One of my aspirations for Latent Space is to be as helpful, influential, whatever, as TechCrunch was-

That's awesome

... back in the day.

Yeah.

What would the new TechCrunch today look like? You know, what, what, what-

Yeah

... what should I, what should I do?

I think-

There, there used to be TechCrunch Disrupt.

Yeah.

You know, I could do that-

Yeah

... with my conference, but I haven't done it yet.

Well, I mean, I think, um-

Is that useful? I don't know.

Uh- Well, you know, actually, interestingly, I would, I would argue Disrupt came after the period that was the-

Yeah

... was that deep cut period.

Okay.

So, so, I mean, D- D- Disrupt, you know, ended up being, you know, su- you know, catalyzing... I don't even... I think Cloudflare launched at Disrupt.

Yes.

Is that the story, right?

They were runners up.

Okay, okay. So, like, so, like, I think anytime, anytime you can be in a, a launchpad is, is just great because it draws in people that-

That's what I'm trying to do

... in that, in that creative moment. And whether it needs to be a contest or, or just, like, everybody gets, like, five minutes and you're fundraising. I mean, who knows? But, but I mean, for what it's worth, like, I don't really have that much advice 'cause I think you...

you're, you're already doing it effectively. Like, I, I just, like, watch the YouTube videos late at night, um, uh, from the events. I haven't been to one of your events, but, like, from the, from the camera angles, it looks like everybody's there.

Yeah.

So, like-

Trying. Trying

... what's great is that people are gonna be in the audience as, like, two random people, and they'll be like, you know, the next, the next big AI company will come from, you know, people coming to a meetup-

Yes

... 'cause they were like, "Oh, I came in from Chicago," and, "I'm, uh, from, you know, Poland, and let's go do a startup."

Yeah.

Like, that's the magic-

Thanks to-

... of, of the Valley.

Thanks to Parthi, founder, co-founder at IE.

Oh.

And, and I know of at least one marriage that's, that's, that's come-

Wow, you have marriages already?

Yeah.

I don't... I never heard that about TechCrunch.

That's my, that's my-

There we go

... favorite KPI.

Wow, we have AI marriages- ... at the, at the AI engineer conferences.

Yeah.

These are, like, humans, to be clear.

Okay. Exactly.

Yes.

That's a very good clarification.

I like that you have to check.

Yes.

Yeah.

That's a very good clarification.

Uh, no, but I, I think you, you're, you're insightful. You're a business leader with, like, a lot of thoughts on media, so I just figured I would-

I mean, media is such an interesting space right now because, because, uh, you know, with the go direct model, every company is gonna have to be a media company. Like-

You are going to... You are the OG go direct.

Yeah, but, but, but, you know, we- we're, we're still, like, like, I, I think what, what you guys are doing... And I don't even know all the overlapping relationships, but, like, I watch your guys' videos of your events, watch your event videos.

But, like, it's clearly, like, this is the new format, right? Companies have to become channels to communicate with audiences.

Yeah.

I think the resurgence, uh, resurgence maybe is a bad word 'cause it implies a decline, but, like, DevRel is hot.

Yeah.

Like, the hottest thing of all time right now. I... Like, if you could produce a fricking factory of DevRel people, like, there's just, like, unlimited jobs right now on the other end of that.

Yeah.

Um, 'cause we're gonna... Everybody needs their services and APIs to be used by agents, and so we have to all find a way to like, like, "Hey, look at me." Like-

Yeah

... like, "Agent, over... Oh, please come over here, agent." And that's gonna... That's a content game. Like, how do you get the agents to see your stuff-

Yeah. AI

... and know your APIs?

Yeah.

And, like, this is, like, a new world that-

Yeah

... that we are in. And, uh, it's gonna be a... It's, it's gonna completely be a digital marketing, you know, kinda world that we're in.

Yeah. Uh, for what it's worth, I'm trying to help by doing little writing boot camps and basically turn into a DevRel boot camp. Um, where, you know... Well, it's a demand and supply problem. There's this huge demand.

Yeah.

There's no supply.

Wow.

All this increased demand.

Why is there no supply?

The one- the really good ones work for themselves.

Uh-huh.

Creator economy.

Yeah.

Scoot- scoots you over.

So I see. So, so Substack and-

Yes

... YouTube payouts, and that's... Is that really it?

They're making-

And Patreon.

Yeah. Like, the, the most-

Huh

... talented guys are making, you know, millions and just working for themselves. Why do they work for you?

But that's not good. We don't want them to make that much money. We need to be able to hire people.

What? I mean, I think, I think, like, you know, do, do what some companies are doing. You know, I'm not saying it's my situation exactly, but, like, give them equity and, like-

Uh-huh

... you know, it should... probably would be worth more, uh, just, like, sort of helping them out.

Well, they are getting... Oh, sorry, as full-time employees or not?

Oh, part-time.

You need full-time.

I'm part-time.

Yeah, but, but you're, you're- ... you're N of 1. Like, we like also people that are full-time.

Yeah, yeah. My classic joke or-

Yeah

... or, like, observation was, like, this was when HubSpot bought, like, their... They bought, like, a newsletter business. Uh, and then they bought the My First Million, like, the, the, the sort of podcast.

Oh.

Dharmesh. You must know Dharmesh, yeah.

Yeah.

Um, so he's, like, obsessed with this guy.

Okay.

So, so my conclusion was, like, every company must either build or buy a media company.

Yes.

Right? And until you... unless you realize that, that you have to take it that seriously that you are running a media business in your company-

Yes

... you will never be, uh, good at it.

Yes.

Yeah.

100%.

Yeah.

Yeah. No. We're, we're very much taking that seriously, but, but still, and yet DevRel, I mean, I gotta do one plug. I don't... me plugging it all the time.

Go ahead. Please, please, please, please, please.

Like, we're hiring in DevRel.

Yeah.

Like like please.

No, we need all engineers here.

Yeah. Okay.

Like, yeah.

And-

And, like, you've made it, like... And I just said every, every agent needs a box. Like, let's go, let's go.

Thank you. No. That, that's the headline.

Nice.

We are hiring DevRel to make that happen. Uh, but yeah, I think DevRel is, like, the future job. So we're all just gonna be doing DevRel of, in some form.

Okay. Yeah.

I mean, what is FD-

Developers are ruling the earth, yeah. What is FD? I don't know. Um-

No. It's, it's DevRel.

Yeah? Okay.

No, you just, you're going to a company-

It's, isn't it just like glorified consulting? That's, that's the downside.

Sure.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I guess nobody can, like, actually d- you know, d- fully define this. But, um, uh, but I think it's, it's m- it's micro DevRel.

Got it.

Like, you're in the company, you're helping them with the services.

Yeah.

You're doing a little bit of extra implementation.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, but, uh, but yeah. So it's, uh... I, I think we're all... You know, the thing that's gonna happen on the ledger of software is we're gonna produce far more output of code, and thus features per dollar. But on the other end of this, we're gonna actually end up spending probably just as much on how do you get all of that stuff to the customer, and it's gonna create a new set of roles that we are all doing, partly because, I- either because there's so much choice, now you have to kind of fight for attention there, or because the stuff is, is just changing so quickly that you have to technically help your customers along the journey.

Yeah.

So, so I just think, like, I... This is why I, I f- I always laugh when, you know, people say, "You don't need to be an engineer, don't do computer science." I actually think, like, that is, like, still one of the most protected job categories because things are only getting more technical, things are only gonna get harder, and anybody in a technical position is in the best position-

Yeah

... to get agents deployed, get them built, get them adopted, build the, the, the custom code software to the, for the IT system, all of that.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Yeah. My, my classic founding story of, like, why I picked AI engineer as a title and as, as a, as a theme for this podcast, as a theme for my conference, was, um, back in tw- like early 2023, uh, someone non-tech who came to me and said, like, "I'm all in on AI.

What should I do?" And I was like... I just looked at her, I was like, "Goddammit, there's nothing you can do." Like, "Engineers are about to get so much more powerful than you."

Ah.

"You don't even understand."

Tell me there's... Should she go and then learn?

No, I didn't, I didn't say any of that to her, just-

Oh, oh, okay, okay, okay.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

I, I'm not, I'm not that honest.

Well, I ho- ... I hope somewhere out there she, she did, went to some online academy-

Exactly, learn to code

... and became a... Yeah, yeah.

But there, there's a lot of people, like, there's a lot of people who believe AI too much, and then they're like, "Well, you don't need to learn to code, so I won't learn to code."

Yeah.

And then there's, there's, like, there's a bunch of us who are, like, just in that sweet spot of, like, we can code and we can wield AI a thousand times more effectively than you can.

Yeah.

And, like, well, who's gonna win here? Like...

I think, I think I... This is another, uh, a tweet, but it was, like, the observation that, like, really software engineering for the past 30 years was the primary career track for, like, technical high agency people that wanted to have a large outside impact on the world.

Yeah.

And, like, software was a means to, you know, do that, right-

Yeah

... effectively. Um, and so, yeah, with AI, is it like that, uh-

And, and for-

AI is gonna eat software engineering, or is software engineering gonna eat all other kind of domains and disciplines?

You're... Those pra- same principles then get applied to every other-

And the same people, right?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, G Team engineering is that-

100%

... and everything else, yeah.

Well, this is the... Y- you know, uh, a- anybody who believes that an enterprise, and I'm, I'm, I'm mixed on the, I'm mixed on this, is i- but if you believe that an enterprise is going to build its own software for all of its problems, then you must be the most long on computer science, you know, as a discipline of all time.

Because guess what?

Hmm.

Most of the economy does not have enough engineers-

Yep

... to then maintain all those systems, to update the, all the systems, to figure out the, the relationship between the business problem and what the code needs to do to go and actually manage that. And so, so, like, that's a, that's a very pro-engineering job argument of what the future's gonna look like.

I'm still, like, kinda go back and forth on, like, are you gonna really build all these things versus no prepackaged software? But no matter what, there's gonna be 10 to 100 times more code.

Yeah.

So I think you can be very long engineering right now as just a, you know, purely on the dimension of, of software's gonna become increasingly more important once agents are, are, you know, turning everything into software.

Yeah. All right, three software guys say software again.

Okay.

Not biased at all.

Okay.

But, uh, Aaron, you're an inspiration.

All right, thank you.

It's such a pleasure.

All right, get a beer.